[S14] A change in Playoffs

[Niko]

Everyone's favorite topic.
​

But yes, this time we'll be talking about Playoffs in Wiimmfi League. To some this may only natural that we would be bringing them up, to some maybe not but we will cut straight to the point why we're definitely not going to stick to the current format:



- They make no sense when they happen within the division itself & 3rd place as well as 2nd place have an easy way of usurping 1st place
- 1st place's only advantages are: they skip Semifinals and they decide rulesets for Matches 1 and 3. That's it.
=> Problem with this is that 1st places in a division in several cases demonstrated that they dominated their division while the Teams that 1st place beat during the main season suddenly actually have a good chance of winning the season after all due to the lack of advantages that 1st place is being given.

- Scheduling/availability: something that occurs over and over again - due to the potential of having 3 matches people find it hard to come to an agreement quickly, it gets pushed back further and further and this is especially the case if both teams have people from mainly other continents (Europe vs Asia for example)
=> It can take some while until the season is truly finished by then due to the amount of divisions we have.





Anything we worked on?

For one there's this document which basically explains "conferences". Some of you may recall it and we're suspecting that this wouldn't gain as much support as we might hope but I'll go over the intentions here briefly.

Spoiler: Conferences

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jem4CaoPz_QdVl92FdwBFvzvttgPUELjlyOtfy-YQx0/edit

- wanted to reduce complaints for seedings
- wanted a change of format
- wanted a format in which Playoffs make actually sense because they wouldn't be within one division only

Duration of this with 12 Teams in a conference: 17 weeks
Duration of this with 8 Teams in a conference: ~11 weeks

Keep in mind that 1) we banned transfers and 2) the "higher division teams" would play weaker teams while the weaker Teams might struggle against the stronger Teams and lose a lot (which isn't fun in the long run and certainly isn't as encouraging for some most likely).
This is why we probably wouldn't be implementing this unless for some reason, huge interest was shown for it or something.
Also props to those that actually bothered reading the document and trying to understand what we tried doing there.



Solution 1 we're offering is to just revert back to the old thing altogether: no Playoffs, just the 10 weeks main season like MKU currently does it

There's not much to say but...
- gets rid of long matches (Best of 3 potentially)
- all matches would therefore take the same amount of time (estimated: 1 hour)
- no usurping 1st place whatsoever
- no lack of advantages like it is the case with the current form of Playoffs
- the last weeks wouldn't have to be pushed back by multiple weeks before a division is finally over



Solution 2, if for some reason Playoffs are supposed to remain: top 2 teams makes playoffs + 1st seed only has to win once while 2nd seed has to win twice + 1st seed picks rulesets in both Matches:

- 1st place has a legit advantage finally just as it should be for a team that won their division
- time would be cut down considerably at any rate, especially since there is only 1 additional week after the 10 weeks main season
- less threats for 1st place in general
- 10-0'ing a division automatically leads to winning the division for that Team without any playoffs at all (optional? we'll see)


Now, this would be probably the time where WL Council are bullies and slam yet another forced change on the community but this time, you guys may vote on which solution you'd want us to do and keep in mind that we will not do the current one, out of the question.
We will be leaving up this poll for about 3 days.

 

[roy]

I mostly like the idea of Solution 2 as their is a good balance between the advantage of getting 1st but also allowing a potential exciting final match. I really don't see why the 10-0 rule is necessary though as it is totally irrelevant. There will be cases where there are two stand out teams in the division so both of these going 8-0 could almost be for granted meaning the whole division comes down to two matches where default times can be forced which isn't allowed in playoffs afaik. Don't see why this is needed but i like the other changes.

 

[~Maidvelia❤︎~]

Playoffs do not work in divisions of 6 teams, they're simply too small. Divisions need to be bigger to have a playoffs system.
Playoffs in conferences can go between divisions and most sports (aside from like 1) only do playoffs when it is between divisions.

Solution 1 or sticking with the conferences format is the best.

Please watch this video for further details on my opinion:

 

[Tea]

As someone who has been such a big proponent on playoffs in the past, I now have a vastly different view on playoffs entirely. This mainly stems from the fact that in games that deal with RNG. It shouldn't reward teams that have won a certain set of games. In Mario Kart Wii, this can be factored through items (i.e. shock). The best way to counter this is to have as much data as possible, which is the double round robin format that we have. The 5% can happen in a playoff set, that can ultimately lead to the better team the other 95% of the time to win. The video below gives good examples to this, but the current double round robin, or even the conference setting without playoffs, are better formats than the one with playoffs.

Also, love me some Rookie, but does every change have to be incited by him? I know some teams have been clamoring for the end of playoffs or the change of playoffs for many seasons, but it seems that these changes are only coming because of him. Council seems to be blindly changing because Rookie is actually giving arguments that are constructive, yet are taken to an extreme. For instance, the all random CTWL that is in plan next season adds in more random factors to an already random game and it hinders the ability of lower leveled players/teams to be more consistent in CTWL.

 

[~Maidvelia❤︎~]

Not Rookie's idea in the slightest for this change (we've had plans to change it well before his video even existed) I just support his video and believe it needs attention. @Authoritea

 

[Articuno]

Conferences seem to way to go, at least for Custom Tracks. With the new system for custom tracks, Council has told us that it should reduce the skill gap between the teams, and having conferences is probably the best way to go. With the lessen skill gap, the matches will be closer, weaker teams will still be able to compete at a close level with the stronger teams in the division, and it makes playoffs meaningful for custom tracks. More teams are involved inside conferences, so playoffs are actually reasonable or doable, either being best of 3 or whichever format is decided. There are currently 4 divisions, with 4+6+6+6 teams, so 22 teams, and expecting there to be a couple more teams this season ((Bc having 2 teams (most likely) and sop having 3 teams) just as examples), so having conferences of like 12 teams with top 4 or top 6 or something advancing to elim stages, seems more ideal for custom tracks. I think having conferences for Custom Tracks at least will have a benefit to the CTWL stance, and potentially having conferences for Reg WL as well.

Also, shoutout to Rookie for these videos and insightful thoughts. Keep up the good work.

 

[Monyz]

For instance, the all random CTWL that is in plan next season adds in more random factors to an already random game and it hinders the ability of lower leveled players/teams to be more consistent in CTWL.

Someone put this man leading the council. Actually has a brain that works properly

Also option 2 is better. If you want to merge d6 with d5 might as well make one div with 12-24 teams.(if they are balanced of course) which I don't think it's a good idea. Especially this season because if we extend the leave it will just cross with Xmas and there would most likely be a bunch of problems with playing WL matches and stuff

 

[PhoenixRiku]

Group stage + bracket. But that won’t happen so... unlucky

 

[Spec]

I just want to see a league that is more remnant of the other esport in the world and any step away from the current playoff format is a step in the right direction to me

 

[Luke]

the double round robin format is not as much data as possible. 10 wars is a tiny sample. plus the issue of later matches potentially being meaningless for some teams and meaningful for their opponents

 

[Tonton]

Conferences seem to way to go, at least for Custom Tracks. With the new system for custom tracks, Council has told us that it should reduce the skill gap between the teams, and having conferences is probably the best way to go. With the lessen skill gap, the matches will be closer, weaker teams will still be able to compete at a close level with the stronger teams in the division

the above text

 

[zero]

Solution 2 is definitely better than doing nothing or going back to 10 monotonous weeks but it's too short and oppressive and basically gives 1st seed a free W in "playoffs" (I wouldn't even call it that since at most its 2 more wars). It wouldn't even be worth it to implement as is.

I'd like to see solution 2 but expanded to a gauntlet-esque format that includes the top 4 teams. This is to give middle-low pack teams something to fight for in the 2nd half of the season and to give teams who may have had a slow start a chance at finishing well. 10 weeks is a long time and teams often improve/slack during a season.

Week 1: Seed 3 hosts Seed 4 for bo1
Week 2: Seed 2 hosts winner of Week1 for bo1
Week 3: Seed 1 and winner of Week2 play a Bo3 with Seed 1 given a starting win(same setup as solution 2). Seed 1 picks format for match 1 and their opponent will pick format for match 3 if necessary. (Side note: logic behind this is that if Seed1 is going to win at their own format, there's no reason to give the other team their format first. Team 2 will need to prove they can beat Seed1 at Seed1's format regardless, so we make them do it first to avoid a potential unnecessary match3. Also, giving a team a free win plus picking format for all matches is too much.)

If you want to make it even more of a gauntlet that lower seeds have to "run" to make finals you can combine weeks 1 and 2 so the initial winners are forced to win back-to-back to advance or even combine all 3 weeks into 1. It might be tough to schedule, but it would be pretty sick to watch a high div gauntlet day go down (and would make for a good mkboards stream).

I wouldn't recommend expanding the gauntlet to 5 teams because if a team drops then the entire division makes the post-season.
I wouldn't recommend constricting the gauntlet to 3 teams because that's p close to what is happening now and it's not really much of a gauntlet, just a play-in to finals

Overall this format would yield at MOST the same amount of wars that is the minimum in the current format (4) and getting rid of the full Bo3s makes them easier to schedule.

 

[Jam1228]

I'd prefer 10 team conferences with a 5 team double elimination bracket (best of 1's played over 3 weeks) over either of these choices, using this season as an example it would have looked like.

Spoiler: Divs/Conferences

It helps get rid of the pre-pubescent whining that happens every seeding with people saying how bad their own team is while saying everyone else sucks in lounge. If that's just not doable I'd go with Zero's idea, then Option 2.

 

[Teeples]

C O N F E R E N C E S

 

[Goomba]

I'm all for conferences honestly, would be a good change imo.

 

[Alex.]

Zeros idea on the thread is the best one I've seen. I personally dont agree with the statement "1st place's only advantages are: they skip Semifinals and they decide rulesets for Matches 1 and 3. That's it. " and the general idea that the team that finishes first needs an advantage period. to me the advantage should be that 1st place is, supposed to be, the better team. if you look at most sports its the same way, and in many other games. Zero implements the other, what i thought was, the main error in the current playoff system, and although i have other ways to approach this as more of a bracket (1st plays 4th, 2nd plays 3rd in bo1 - winner of m1 plays winner of m2 in bo3) format pick is the same as it is now, as momentum and such plays a bigger factor i think into showing which team has a stronger mental game. i certainly dont disagree with the way zero implemented his idea, as i thought it was actually a better idea as it makes it harder for a team with a worse record to end up taking the division as more of a bracket climb. Thats personally the best way i see it working with the current division size ect. just bringing my initial idea of the bracket up for discussion, even if i dont think its a better format then zeros.


if what i wrote doesnt make sense i apologize, im writing this in the middle of a war, point out flaws in my writing ect, ill respond to the best i can.

 

[Calum]

I think more playoffs is better, make conferences and make it one match playoffs highest seed gets ruleset but not hosting advantage, eg 1v4, 3v2 then winners play then conference winners play, gives every team something to play for every week of the 11 weeks and allow transfers, but only between week 5 and 6, and ban transfers within the division. Thanks for reading