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Expressing my Grievances

Valence

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Aug 11, 2018
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#1
Firstly, I apologize for reopening this topic, I had a personal emergency and missed the main thread before it got locked.

Second, I was going to go more in depth about my view on the topic and why I chose the punishment I did, but it seems that the majority of the chat logs were posted and there isn't a whole lot more I need to add the clarify my position, so I'll just let them speak for themselves. The only two clarifications I'll add (in case they weren't included in those logs) is that 1. My preferred punishment would have been an indefinite chat restriction + ban from DMing server members but discord doesn't have a feature like that unfortunately and 2. The main reason for letting the still play is because any other crime, even a severe one like armed robbery let's say, would not warrant preventing them from playing. Of course, I understand that pedophilia/dating a minor carries a community risk which is why it would also warrant item 1.

My primary reason to make this post is to vent my frustration with the the dishonesty of Inviso and his group, and how much he and his group misrepresented my position. We'll start with the report itself. I was approached by Savannah first concerning this issue which prompted the first conversation that was posted in the original thread. What was omitted from that was our conversation where she brings up Discord's community guidelines, which states that they expect server owners and mods to perform some due diligence and report illegal activities. This was a perfect solution for us since sending these logs to local authorities requires us to get personal information from the perpetrators, which is not only difficult but also a breach of privacy. Letting Discord make the decision was ideal, so I obliged.


1566440897032.png

Here, Savannah offers to submit the report herself (I assumed on my behalf since I thought she was still on MKB staff at the time) in order to protect the privacy of the involved parties. Now to be fair, this privacy concern of hers should be irrelevant and I should have pried more to do it myself since I'm the server owner and it is therefore my responsibility, but I the time I was under the impression that she was on the MKB staff and that she'd act in good faith and make a submission focused on the perpetrators, while also detailing the precautions I took since we are working in association.

Of course, this is not what happened. The report was largely focused on trying to label me as some sort of enabler, knowingly letting them run free into the server with no precautionary measures. I followed up with Savannah a few days ago to get a quick update on the submission of the report and the response from Discord, since I was kept completely in the dark about it.

1566442006423.png

Here, she claims that the report does include what actions I took as precautions. Now to be fair, she could be referring to the attached chatlogs in the report which I assume are the conversations I had with her and Inviso where I certainly would have mentioned it, but the report is written with aggressive intent to brand me as some sort of sympathizer who refused to punish or do anything about the perpetrators.

Again, you can disagree with my point of view on the issue and you can deem my punishment as inadequate, that's totally fine. But it's incredibly frustrating to be accused of being some sort of sympathizer when I clearly did not condone any of their actions, and I was 100% on board to submit all of the evidence to Discord to have appropriate action taken.

Then there is the conversation with Inviso. As the previous thread stated, the remainder of the conversation wasn't important for the point they were making, but I think it helps illustrate what their intention was all along.


I think even without this tidbit, just based on the first message he sent me it felt more like a threat rather than a friendly warning. This should have clued me in to what was coming. Now I can understand disagreeing with my stance, I was totally fine having a discussion with them about it, but this attempt to threaten me then smear me by omitting my willingness to report the perpetrators is incredibly dishonest. Not to mention the cowardice on display. Posting as a "Guest" to avoid backlash? Classy...

I'll conclude this by saying that while I'd like to have a nuanced discussion about this topic, I was definitely wrong to also ACT on my opinion without first gauging the community's opinion on mine. The correct action was ban first, discuss later and I'll take full responsibility for that mistake. From now on, all current accused perpetrators and any future ones will be permanently banned from Lounge. Future cases will also be reported to Discord's Trust and Safety Team if they occurred on Discord's platform. And I think we'll just keep it that way for good, I'm sure everyone is fed up with this discussion and it's too much of a headache to deal with anyways.

As a final note, based on the way that report was written there is a risk of my account getting deleted. I just want to let everyone know that I'm still fully committed to supporting Lounge regardless of the outcome of the investigation. I still have big plans for it in the future.

EDIT: I've been informed by the MKB staff that Savannah is no longer part of the staff, she's just an occasional advisor now. This coup was carried out by Inviso and Savannah was part of their group. This doesn't change the criticism of dishonesty from them. I've retracted my statements on the MKB staff. This thread will largely act to add context and my side of the situation.
 

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Valence

Valence

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Thread Starter #2
EDIT: I've been informed by the MKB staff that Savannah is no longer part of the staff, she's just an occasional advisor now. This coup was carried out by Inviso and Savannah was part of their group. This doesn't change the criticism of dishonesty from them. I've retracted my statements on the MKB staff. This thread will largely act to add context and my side of the situation.
 
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Messages
38
#5
Let's make a few things clear:

1) You refused to assist the community in ousting these individuals. That's on you and only you.
2) This thread is an attempt to save face and blame those who called you out on your actions (or lack there of). Only a guilty person would turn the blame on someone else when they're caught. You're the coward, my guy.
3) I had nothing but good intentions tbh. As soon as you turned hostile, I dipped, because really, I was doing you the favor. The thread was going to get posted no matter what, to my understanding, if you chose to do nothing. I had enough respect for you from the standpoint of putting in a lot of work into Lounge, and seeing all that hard work potentially get undone because of one poor decision didn't sit well with me as a person. Don't care if you don't believe me, that's all it was.
4) The situation was resolved without you. They were banned. Topic was resolved. You lost your chance to make things right when you were approached AT LEAST TWICE with opportunities to rectify and you chose not to. You have to deal with those repercussions YOURSELF. Don't you dare shift blame to anyone else.
 

Savannah

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#6
Here, Savannah offers to submit the report herself (essentially on my behalf) in order to protect the privacy of the involved parties. Now to be fair, this privacy concern of hers should be irrelevant and I should have pried more to do it myself since I'm the server owner and it is therefore my responsibility, but I the time I was under the impression that she was on the MKB staff and that she'd act in good faith and make a submission focused on the perpetrators, while also detailing the precautions I took since we are working in association.
I hate how you’re claiming it was on your behalf. I did not offer to report, I *told* you I was going to report this. I told you that discord expects server admins to uphold diligence in their servers and followed that by saying I was going to report this. You kept arguing your points and why you didn’t want to kick them and I argued back not just with opinions, but with rules.



I’m sure you’re a decent guy and everything but don’t lie to save face. This was not on your behalf, I told you what I was about to do, I was not dishonest.

I never said I was part of MKB staff. I haven’t been an admin for over a year now. I did act in good faith. I was seriously concerned about these people being in the server. I don’t appreciate that you’re implying that I had ill intent with this.

To clarify I wasn’t the one who wrote the report - it was only my idea to do so and I asked someone if they were able to report it since I was busy at work. So no, also wasn’t me who called you an enabler whatever

I’m happy that you realize your wrongs here though. I was pretty upset to find out that the majority of lounge staff did not know about this. Anytime someone approaches you with a problem you shouldn’t represent the whole staffs opinion
 
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Valence

Valence

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Thread Starter #7
1. What are you claiming here? That I secretly knew that there were underage relationships going on and didn't bring them to light? I had no knowledge of any of these cases until they were ousted by others and I took action as soon as I knew with the chat restrictions. Can you clarify what you mean by this point?

2. If clearing up an obvious attempt to misrepresent my position and smear me is called "saving face", then by all means. I'm adding the much needed context that you and your group intentionally omitted to make me look worse. Am I just going to stand by and let people believe your constructed lie? Also, what exactly are you accusing me of when you say "I'm turning the blame on you"? I took responsibility for the decision I made at the end of the post, I wasn't denying that it may have been the wrong decision nor did I claim that you constructed it as a lie. I'm simply accusing you rightfully of being dishonest and attempting to smear me (and I'll add emotionally manipulate others to turn against me in your thread) which is a totally separate circumstance.

3. I'll just let all of the chat logs speak for themselves for this, it's clear as day that you had it out for me (or the community in general) because anyone with good intentions would have included all of the context. How could you claim you were acting in good faith when your submission of the evidence to Discord 1. did not include the punishments I distributed and claimed they were free to chat with anyone at will with my implied endorsement, 2. failed to mention any of my involvement in participating in the investigation, 3. branded me as a sympathizer despite my conversations clearly stating that I don't condone their actions and still wanted them punished. Are you just hoping people wont read the context and take you at face value?

4. Again, I don't know what blame shifting you're accusing me of here. Yes, since I was away for the entire day I was unable to take part in the resolution so I let staff make the decision on their own. But regardless, even if I returned on time to make the same decision I understand that it wouldn't absolve me of anything anyways. I'll take whatever repercussions that will come. I am, however, in absolutely the right place to accuse you of the misrepresentation and smear attempt as it does not pertain to what you're accusing me of.

I'll add as an aside, it's incredibly frustrating how you construct your counterarguments with manipulative comments like "Only a guilty person would turn the blame on someone else when they're caught." It's a classic tactic of putting me in a position where it's damned if I do, damned if I don't. It's that same manipulative style you used in your thread AND the report to Discord to make me look worse. Thankfully, I don't think many people will fall for that crap, so please cut that bullshit out.
 
OP
Valence

Valence

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Thread Starter #8
I hate how you’re claiming it was on your behalf. I did not offer to report, I *told* you I was going to report this. I told you that discord expects server admins to uphold diligence in their servers and followed that by saying I was going to report this. You kept arguing your points and why you didn’t want to kick them and I argued back not just with opinions, but with rules.

I’m sure you’re a decent guy and everything but don’t lie to save face. This was not on your behalf, I told you what I was about to do, I was not dishonest.

I never said I was part of MKB staff. I haven’t been an admin for over a year now. I did act in good faith. I was seriously concerned about these people being in the server. I don’t appreciate that you’re implying that I had ill intent with this.

To clarify I wasn’t the one who wrote the report - it was only my idea to do so and I asked someone if they were able to report it since I was busy at work. So no, also wasn’t me who called you an enabler whatever

I’m happy that you realize your wrongs here though. I was pretty upset to find out that the majority of lounge staff did not know about this. Anytime someone approaches you with a problem you shouldn’t represent the whole staffs opinion
This situation turned out to be a misunderstanding by me then. When you contacted me, I thought you were still on the MKB staff which is in association with Lounge.

1566495775262.png


At the end of my message there, I mentioned the MKB staff under the assumption that you were speaking on their behalf. Since you didn't clarify I assumed you were still on staff. This isn't your fault though, I'm sure you might have just overlooked it. I should have been more aware of the staff change.

In that case, of course you wouldn't have been doing it on my behalf. But I'm still disappointed in how I was portrayed in the report and how my willingness to submit it to Discord (among other things) was not included. But that doesn't fall on you anyways since you didn't write the report.

I don't know what you or Inviso's group's objective truly was, it certainly didn't feel like a good faith action, but you in particular I'd believe was doing it for the community. There may have been people acting on their own, I can't know. I'm just here to clear the falsehoods.
 
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#9
1. What are you claiming here? That I secretly knew that there were underage relationships going on and didn't bring them to light? I had no knowledge of any of these cases until they were ousted by others and I took action as soon as I knew with the chat restrictions. Can you clarify what you mean by this point?

2. If clearing up an obvious attempt to misrepresent my position and smear me is called "saving face", then by all means. I'm adding the much needed context that you and your group intentionally omitted to make me look worse. Am I just going to stand by and let people believe your constructed lie? Also, what exactly are you accusing me of when you say "I'm turning the blame on you"? I took responsibility for the decision I made at the end of the post, I wasn't denying that it may have been the wrong decision nor did I claim that you constructed it as a lie. I'm simply accusing you rightfully of being dishonest and attempting to smear me (and I'll add emotionally manipulate others to turn against me in your thread) which is a totally separate circumstance.

3. I'll just let all of the chat logs speak for themselves for this, it's clear as day that you had it out for me (or the community in general) because anyone with good intentions would have included all of the context. How could you claim you were acting in good faith when your submission of the evidence to Discord 1. did not include the punishments I distributed and claimed they were free to chat with anyone at will with my implied endorsement, 2. failed to mention any of my involvement in participating in the investigation, 3. branded me as a sympathizer despite my conversations clearly stating that I don't condone their actions and still wanted them punished. Are you just hoping people wont read the context and take you at face value?

4. Again, I don't know what blame shifting you're accusing me of here. Yes, since I was away for the entire day I was unable to take part in the resolution so I let staff make the decision on their own. But regardless, even if I returned on time to make the same decision I understand that it wouldn't absolve me of anything anyways. I'll take whatever repercussions that will come. I am, however, in absolutely the right place to accuse you of the misrepresentation and smear attempt as it does not pertain to what you're accusing me of.

I'll add as an aside, it's incredibly frustrating how you construct your counterarguments with manipulative comments like "Only a guilty person would turn the blame on someone else when they're caught." It's a classic tactic of putting me in a position where it's damned if I do, damned if I don't. It's that same manipulative style you used in your thread AND the report to Discord to make me look worse. Thankfully, I don't think many people will fall for that crap, so please cut that bullshit out.
Chat restrictions don't prevent anything though. They could DM minors using your server with ease. This was told to you. You failed to do enough to protect the underage folks. What you deem as enough and what actually is enough are not one in the same.

There wasn't much else to include though? The fact remains you failed to work with MKBoards staff and others on this matter. That's really what's important here.

I didn't even know who you were before this, so yeah no, LOL. I'm not like most in this community who just hear something and accept it as a fact. Again, had no clue who you were prior to this. And I'll say it one more time...your punishments WERE NOT ENOUGH. Removing them from server was the appropriate action and when presented with why it should be, you flat out said "I'm not doing it unless Discord tells me to." You failed as an administrator, and honestly, I'm surprised that topic didn't take it even further and request that you step down as admin of Lounge. And piss off with the "I wanted them punished." You were in a position to punish them and chose simply mute them but continue to allow them to play with everyone. Get outta here with that.

You didn't let staff make a decision of their own, THEY DID MAKE THE DECISION ON THEIR OWN. You flat out admit you weren't around at all yesterday and missed everything. So don't even make it sound like you gave any sort of positive influence on this, because you didn't. Once more, so maybe this time it will sink in, you were granted MULTIPLE opportunities to rectify, and didn't. You just don't like that you were publicly outed for it.

Wanna know what was frustrating? The fact that I actually helped with something for the community only to be shat on regardless. Y'all can fuck off honestly.
 

Cyrus

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Joined
Jun 24, 2018
Messages
7
#10
it's pretty embarrassing that as a community we choose to dwell on this in such a malicious fashion. the effort expressed by inviso and co. definitely feels more like a witch hunt rather than the grandiose, self-sacrificial attempt to protect children they made it out to be. the conversation between inviso and valence specifically comes off as blackmail rather than an "attempt to help". the fact that valence (and by extension lounge staff) was given that much flak for their completely reasonable decision is scary - we need to get rid of this "guilt by association" premise, demonizing people for their beliefs and stop conflicting our own interests if this child predation concern is to ever be resolved. what should've been a collaborative effort between the 2 groups turned into a passive-aggressive assertion of an agenda by inviso and co. which resulted in arguably more damage done than anyone bargained for. it's sad to witness that we as a community can't respect a compromise and instead have to assert our own views above all, but oh well...

i'd like to address another thing as well: the audacious entitlement of some people to deny someone their right to play the game or interact with the community. to those people, i have to ask, who are you to play god and decide that? you will never be able to stop someone from playing the game, or participating in the community (unless they are banned/outed by the majority, which they have been in this case). whether a sex offender or not, it's childish and deeply toxic to call for a person's ostracization from the entire game just based on your feelings, ESPECIALLY after the majority has ostracized and punished them enough. it completely shits on the ongoing effort to accordingly punish offenders by the community, as well as vilifying innocent people for presenting opposing opinions. have you ever considered that virtue signalling is less effective than a collective effort to stop enabling and vindicating these offenders? i suggest you write an essay about this next, maybe it'll be better received than the trash that the original thread was.
 
Joined
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Messages
38
#11
it's pretty embarrassing that as a community we choose to dwell on this in such a malicious fashion. the effort expressed by inviso and co. definitely feels more like a witch hunt rather than the grandiose, self-sacrificial attempt to protect children they made it out to be. the conversation between inviso and valence specifically comes off as blackmail rather than an "attempt to help". the fact that valence (and by extension lounge staff) was given that much flak for their completely reasonable decision is scary - we need to get rid of this "guilt by association" premise, demonizing people for their beliefs and stop conflicting our own interests if this child predation concern is to ever be resolved. what should've been a collaborative effort between the 2 groups turned into a passive-aggressive assertion of an agenda by inviso and co. which resulted in arguably more damage done than anyone bargained for. it's sad to witness that we as a community can't respect a compromise and instead have to assert our own views above all, but oh well...

i'd like to address another thing as well: the audacious entitlement of some people to deny someone their right to play the game or interact with the community. to those people, i have to ask, who are you to play god and decide that? you will never be able to stop someone from playing the game, or participating in the community (unless they are banned/outed by the majority, which they have been in this case). whether a sex offender or not, it's childish and deeply toxic to call for a person's ostracization from the entire game just based on your feelings, ESPECIALLY after the majority has ostracized and punished them enough. it completely shits on the ongoing effort to accordingly punish offenders by the community, as well as vilifying innocent people for presenting opposing opinions. have you ever considered that virtue signalling is less effective than a collective effort to stop enabling and vindicating these offenders? i suggest you write an essay about this next, maybe it'll be better received than the trash that the original thread was.
You do realize all it takes is one parent of one of the kids involved in this to get lawyers, police, and yes, even the FBI, involved in this, right? Or was that concept lost on you? There is no personal feelings involved. It was not a reasonable decision. I've never seen a community try to protect these people so much before. It's amazing. This is the real world though my guy. In the real world, there are CONSEQUENCES for ILLEGAL ACTIONS. And if you can't understand that, if others cannot understand that, then god have mercy. What was done was done to get something done that shouldn't have ever been up for debate to begin with. Don't like it? Get over it.
 
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#12
You do realize all it takes is one parent of one of the kids involved in this to get lawyers, police, and yes, even the FBI, involved in this, right? Or was that concept lost on you? There is no personal feelings involved. It was not a reasonable decision. I've never seen a community try to protect these people so much before. It's amazing. This is the real world though my guy. In the real world, there are CONSEQUENCES for ILLEGAL ACTIONS. And if you can't understand that, if others cannot understand that, then god have mercy. What was done was done to get something done that shouldn't have ever been up for debate to begin with. Don't like it? Get over it.
I haven't been reading the thread much because I don't care to read either side rant, but from what I'm seeing is that you and Sabby don't understand is that this does nothing for the community. Wow you're getting rid of "pedophiles," but asked for any of this. It's funny too because you did this all behind MKB and Lounge staff and only told them the day before the other thread was posted.
 

~Maidvelia~

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#13
Any party is entitled to make a report to Discord, no staff groups of a community are required to get involved on the creation of the report. "Behind x staff group" is irrelevant here. People can do what they see fit, as the system only requires a single individual for submitting one. This keeps the opportunity to make a report equal by not requiring being an authority figure.

The report could have just been made without any warning to the people involved. Everything besides that (the conversations with Valence, the thread, and conversations with staff), is all entirely optional.

I am not a fan of some of the screenshots being omitted from me which made me have worse impressions on Valence than before he posted his side, but I've known about this report for a while. There was no need, for me in particular, to tell any staff groups until a thread was decided to be made that would get the community involved (there is no way I was gonna let a thread like that get posted without forewarning staff).
 
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#14
It's just funny that you have to go to this extend, when the issue itself has become somewhat irrelevant. It's been about a month after the incident, and no one really talked about it until now since you brought it up again. It's just pathetic the lengths you're going to for an issue that quite literally, no one cares about anymore.
 

~Maidvelia~

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#15
It's just funny that you have to go to this extend, when the issue itself has become somewhat irrelevant. It's been about a month after the incident, and no one really talked about it until now since you brought it up again. It's just pathetic the lengths you're going to for an issue that quite literally, no one cares about anymore.
"Whether someone cares." I love how we always default to that argument for any topic.

No, it's not about who cares. It's about what Discord's policies are, and it's about the real-world repercussions of not taking proper action on illegal activity.

None of this is a game, we can't treat it like one. If we do, we become liable to legal action.
 
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#16
I haven't been reading the thread much because I don't care to read either side rant, but from what I'm seeing is that you and Sabby don't understand is that this does nothing for the community. Wow you're getting rid of "pedophiles," but asked for any of this. It's funny too because you did this all behind MKB and Lounge staff and only told them the day before the other thread was posted.
No, you're the one not understanding, so maybe you shouldn't be posting. And you have no idea who was involved and who wasn't. You literally know nothing. Just stop posting.
 

Savannah

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#17
I haven't been reading the thread much because I don't care to read either side rant, but from what I'm seeing is that you and Sabby don't understand is that this does nothing for the community. Wow you're getting rid of "pedophiles," but asked for any of this. It's funny too because you did this all behind MKB and Lounge staff and only told them the day before the other thread was posted.
I wasn’t going to keep replying to this thread because I don’t want to add fuel to the flame, continue making arguments when an issue was resolved. But this is very concerning coming from you Ryan. I know your situation may not have been as bad as others - we can argue about this all day and never agree, but the other offenders were particularly terrible especially since one of them is still talking to minors, and meeting up with one later this year. These people have no place in the community. I feel really sad that you feel as if this does nothing for the community. So much is happening that plenty of us aren’t aware of. All we can do is keep the known situations away from our community. It is true when people say that our community is very stubborn when it comes to punishments. This type of thing would’ve been over and done with within a second in another community.

Edit: I would like to add that we did not intentionally do this behind their backs. We confronted valence, messaged Larry with no reply, and Edison somehow knew about our concerns too. It didn’t go to the rest of the lounge staff, and I don’t know why. Valence already said in his first post that he should’ve gotten the rest of the staffs opinion, so there’s no need to keep on about that.
 
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#18
I wasn’t going to keep replying to this thread because I don’t want to add fuel to the flame, continue making arguments when an issue was resolved. But this is very concerning coming from you Ryan. I know your situation may not have been as bad as others - we can argue about this all day and never agree, but the other offenders were particularly terrible especially since one of them is still talking to minors, and meeting up with one later this year. These people have no place in the community. I feel really sad that you feel as if this does nothing for the community. So much is happening that plenty of us aren’t aware of. All we can do is keep the known situations away from our community. It is true when people say that our community is very stubborn when it comes to punishments. This type of thing would’ve been over and done with within a second in another community.

Edit: I would like to add that we did not intentionally do this behind their backs. We confronted valence, messaged Larry with no reply, and Edison somehow knew about our concerns too. It didn’t go to the rest of the lounge staff, and I don’t know why. Valence already said in his first post that he should’ve gotten the rest of the staffs opinion, so there’s no need to keep on about that.
I mean I'm sure you're shocked that I'm the one to be like, "Oh no one cares" blah blah, but in reality, I did choose to respond to them when the incidents happened. You don't always have to respond to someone who dms you, you can always ghost them. If someone got a message from any of the known "pedos", it's their choice if they want to talk to them or not. If you're using lounge as a way of contact, I don't know what you're on. Especially in this community, you can be reached through any clans, friends, anything. Contacts are quite literally on the forums. I simply think that shutting down lounge over this is quite, dumb, and that it could be solved in different ways.

No, you're the one not understanding, so maybe you shouldn't be posting. And you have no idea who was involved and who wasn't. You literally know nothing. Just stop posting.
Also I was the one who got banned and was involved in the entire incident. Pay attention next time.
 
Joined
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Messages
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#20
it's pretty embarrassing that as a community we choose to dwell on this in such a malicious fashion. the effort expressed by inviso and co. definitely feels more like a witch hunt rather than the grandiose, self-sacrificial attempt to protect children they made it out to be. the conversation between inviso and valence specifically comes off as blackmail rather than an "attempt to help". the fact that valence (and by extension lounge staff) was given that much flak for their completely reasonable decision is scary - we need to get rid of this "guilt by association" premise, demonizing people for their beliefs and stop conflicting our own interests if this child predation concern is to ever be resolved. what should've been a collaborative effort between the 2 groups turned into a passive-aggressive assertion of an agenda by inviso and co. which resulted in arguably more damage done than anyone bargained for. it's sad to witness that we as a community can't respect a compromise and instead have to assert our own views above all, but oh well...

i'd like to address another thing as well: the audacious entitlement of some people to deny someone their right to play the game or interact with the community. to those people, i have to ask, who are you to play god and decide that? you will never be able to stop someone from playing the game, or participating in the community (unless they are banned/outed by the majority, which they have been in this case). whether a sex offender or not, it's childish and deeply toxic to call for a person's ostracization from the entire game just based on your feelings, ESPECIALLY after the majority has ostracized and punished them enough. it completely shits on the ongoing effort to accordingly punish offenders by the community, as well as vilifying innocent people for presenting opposing opinions. have you ever considered that virtue signalling is less effective than a collective effort to stop enabling and vindicating these offenders? i suggest you write an essay about this next, maybe it'll be better received than the trash that the original thread was.
How is that perfectly reasonable? It really wasn't and happens in no other community. I get that we are a smaller community compared to most but that doesn't mean we should let incidents like this slide. I really don't understand how peeps really didn't see a problem with these people still being allowed to play in lounge around minors after doing what they did, they may not be able to chat but cmon really? What message are you really sending to the person. ( Also miss me with bullshit. 2 of the people that got caught up were friends of mine for 8+ years and i still think they should've gotten kicked from the community. Whats right is right and whats wrong is wrong)


You are right we can't stop them from playing the game if they really want to but what we can do is ban them from the places where the most competition happens. (Lounge forum tournaments and even tournaments off of mkb) These places really reflect on us as a community and to allow these people to still be apart of it giving what they did is a really bad reflection on us. We can't stop lil timmy from wwing or warring with his buddies but we can bar them off from everything else. Like even in other communities you can't really stop a player from playing the game if he truly wants to but he will be banned from all major tournaments and even smaller tournaments. I don't think anyone is trying to "play god" or tell them that they couldn't play a game they paid for or anything. The argument has always been why are they allowed to still play in lounge.


There really wasn't a proper debate nor was the community asked about how they wanted this situation to be handled (To my knowledge atleast) Lounge sort of did what they wanted and it didn't sit well with alot of the community and this is where the backlash is coming from. You and others may think it was a reasonable punishment but you don't make up the community. Also no hard feelings to valence. This thread really changed my opinion on you as a person and i do not think you are a bad guy.
 
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